Jonathan Sprout Interview with William Penn

 

William Penn  

            William Penn was kind enough to grant me his first interview in more than 295 years! I caught up with him at Pennsbury Manor in Morrisville, Pennsylvania, where he spent much of his time while he was living in America.

 

Jonathan Sprout: Mr. Penn, it has been said that the one treaty that European Americans made with the Native Americans that has not been broken is the treaty you made with the natives at Shackamaxon, on the banks of the Delaware River in 1692. Is this true, sir?

 

William Penn: We never actually made a signed treaty. Because we were gentlemen, and we were all comfortable agreeing to a peace without having to put things to paper, which, mind you, was rather expensive in 1682! In spirit? Yes!Let me say, the Native Americans and I had an understanding that was built on mutual respect. We liked each other. We were friends and refused to be enemies, even during our disagreements. That is why our agreements survived. I told the Indians the truth, that I did not put trust in rifles and words, but in faith and goodwill. It was, as you would now say, a “win-win situation.”

 

Jonathan: You spent years in jail in England. Why?

 

Penn: I refused to believe what I was told! I could not pretend that the laws demanding that we individuals had to believe this and that were fair; and I spoke out against those unfair laws.

 

Jonathan: And you were punished.

 

Penn: I was punished with numerous prison sentences.

 

Jonathan: Why was it so important to you that you risk going to jail just to stand up for your beliefs?

 

Penn: It is most important to always do the right thing, regardless of the consequences.

 

Jonathan: What were those beliefs of yours that were so controversial in your day that landed you in jail?

 

Penn: For one, I believed that each of us has the ability to understand the will of God, that each of us can know the truth about the world. The political leaders of my day insisted that only certain people could hear God’s calling and that the rest of us must do as those people said, since they supposedly spoke for God. That is a preposterous thought!

 

Jonathan: When the King of England granted you the land west of New Jersey you became the world’s largest land owner. How did that feel?

 

Penn: Enlightening, because I knew all along the land would not be mine, personally. It would become the land of the Holy Experiment!

 

Jonathan: The Holy Experiment?

 

Penn: My attempt to create a place where all people could worship as they please, govern themselves, and live side-by-side with mutual respect and dignity, with liberty and justice for all.

 

Jonathan: How did you come up with the brilliant idea of creating a Holy Experiment here in America?

 

Penn: A combination of perhaps divine forces opened the way for me. On one hand, we Quakers and others were being persecuted for our beliefs. On the other hand, I sensed that King Charles, II would be more than happy to be rid of us all. Would it not be fitting for all parties involved if we, the persecuted, found our way to a New World?

 

Jonathan: After deciding to create a Holy Experiment, you traveled a lot to speak with people about joining you here in what we now call America. How easy was it for you to convince them all to come with you to the New World?

 

Penn: It would have been a lot easier if I had had your song, “Come with Me!”  back then! All I would have needed to do was play the song, and my listeners would all be dancing in the aisles! I imagine they would have followed me to America as the children of Hamelin followed the Pied Piper!

 

Jonathan: (laughing) But alas… 

 

Penn: But alas, I did not have your lovely song to further my cause! So I had to do the convincing the old fashioned way—with throat and quill.

 

Jonathan: Throat and quill?

 

Penn: With speeches. Impassioned speeches. And tracts, that is, articles that I wrote that were printed and shared with others. I went all over Europe giving speeches to all who would listen, telling them they need not stay and suffer, that a better world was soon to take shape across the western sea, the Atlantic Ocean. In time, they arrived in Pennsylvania by boat load after boat load.

 

Jonathan: You were able to spend only four years in Pennsylvania. Why?

 

Penn: Duty called. I would have much preferred to stay and take a more direct role in the shaping of our Holy Experiment, but there was a long list of things I had to attend to back in England. Our very existence as a sanctioned community was threatened time and again. I felt I had no choice but to return to England to defend us there where major political decisions were made.

 

Jonathan: We think of you now as a visionary—a man ahead of his time—because you insisted on treating people as people, with equality. You were kind and fair with the Native Americans when others were not. What inspired you to believe and act with such fairness?

 

Penn: My beliefs as a member of the Society of Friends, now known simply as Quakers, inspired my views of the world. We Friends believed that there is the light of God in everyone, regardless of place of origin, regardless of skin color, regardless of one’s earthly possessions or the lack thereof. We each contain in our very being the spark of God. Therefore, how could I justify treating anyone any differently that I wanted to be treated?

 

Jonathan: What do you think of your Holy Experiment 300 plus years later? Did the Experiment succeed or fail?

 

Penn: Parts of the vision have lived on. Parts have withered away. Religious freedom and voting rights are thriving. But those who have large amounts of money have more say. It is unfortunate that there remains a gap between the “haves” and the “have nots.”

 

Jonathan: If your vision had lived on, how would America be different now?

 

Penn: All who come here to Pennsylvania, to America, would be welcomed and treated with respect. That is not now so. For some, yes, but not for all. My vision included buying land from the Native Americans, not stealing it. After my death, some natives were not treated with respect. They were given less-than-human status. But, alas, in my day the world was not perfect. And on this day, the world is still not perfect. Such is and perhaps always will be the way of the world.

 

Jonathan: Yet we can all be grateful that your great vision of a more perfect world helped millions and millions of people through three centuries to live happier and more productive lives.

 

Penn: I did what countless others could have done, had they been in the unique position of wealth and power that was afforded me.

 

Jonathan: By the way, congratulations to you and your wife Hannah for being two of only seven honorary United States citizens—ever! How do you feel about that?

 

Penn: Hannah and I are most humbled to be remembered with this honor.

 

Jonathan: Do you have anything to do with the Quaker Oats man?

 

Penn: Indeed, not! Nor do I think I look like that pudgy full-faced character on the boxes! At least, I hope I do not look like him!

 

Jonathan: What is the biggest pencil in the world?

 

Penn: Pennsylvania!

 

Jonathan: Are there any parting thoughts you would like to share with today’s children?

 

Penn: Honor your mother and father, and above all, honor your own sense of right and wrong. Always do what you believe to be just and fair, and be not deterred by fear of suffering the consequences of standing up for your beliefs.

 

Jonathan: Imagine, if we could all live by those words…

 

Penn: Then the Holy Experiment would be alive, in its finest hour. Someday, perhaps!

 

Jonathan: Someday, perhaps. Thank you, Mr. Penn, for living your inspiring life with open arms, and for sharing your ageless wisdom with us!

 

Penn: Ageless, indeed! Old I am! The pleasure of this conversation has been mine, good Friend. God be with thee and thy readers!